It's a fairly niche topic and I'm not sure how much academic work has been done looking explicitly at a comparison of the Western Rite mass to modern or ancient liturgies. But I'm not also not sure that is needed. You can grab a St. Andrews Service Book, which is the WR service book for the Antiochians, and analyze it next to Catholic and Anglican missals; looking at the texts side by side, the differences are minimal.
The St. Ambrose Hymnal used by ROCOR WR... about 3/4 of the hymns are written by heretics. I just don't sing them when they come up... just like I skip Ash Wednesday.
“they would set up an iconostasis, the presence of which was, according to archeologists, nearly universal (contrary to the myths pushed on seemingly every Western Rite parish’s about us page)”
A footnote or authoritative source was conspicuously absent. This was especially notable given how absolutist and universal the claim is. As with many items, reality is often more complicated and nuanced.
For instance, a basic internet search turns up results indicating that the first item even remotely resembling an iconostasis in the historical record turns up in the 6th century when Saint Justinian rebuilt Hagia Sophia. Also, for what it’s worth, the YouTube video “The Failures of Eastern Orthodoxy” links to a clip at the approximately 37:10 mark, showing a clergyman acknowledging that the modern form iconostasis “is a very late development from Orthodox standards.” Granted, I’m not endorsing this video, or saying I agree with most, some, or any of its overall content. I just reference it to cite someone who says the opposite of the claim you make.
Full disclosure, I’m an Orthodox Christian that was entered the Church through an Antiochian parish and now attend an OCA parish in the south. Your note about prostrations on Sunday brought a slight smile to my face. I enjoy the Eastern Christian tradition, but also have a soft spot for the Western Rite. The worship style, hymnography, musical arrangement, and cultural patrimony of the Western Christian tradition, especially the English variant, has a distinctive pull as an American of Anglo-Celtic descent. In a similar vein, many at my current parish feel this strong affiliation for the Russian tradition and the Rus expression of the Orthodox Christian faith. For reasons particular to me, I have a stronger affinity for the Anglo-Celtic expression than that of Rus.
But I’ve already rambled on enough. Overall, this was a very well written and thought provoking piece that I enjoyed. The points I raised above would be better discussed in person over a shared drink or two. God Bless!
I added a few sources which you can explore to get started, though there are many more. Enjoy! Unfortunately, there is a great deal of bad information out there. Similar to how Byzantium was portrayed for hundreds of years (and the very use and connotations of the word "byzantine") by leading scholars, largely out of a need to legitimize the German Empire as the rightful bearer of the Roman legacy, much has been said to justify the West's abandonment of the authentic liturgical traditions of the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Gallic churches.
Modern Anglican and Catholic practices are something entirely foreign to the Anglo-Celtic spirituality you claim to have an affinity for. In the words of Yves Congar: "A Christian of the 4th or 5th century would have felt less bewildered by the forms of piety current in the 11th century than would his counterpart of the 11th century in the forms of the 12th... Between the end of the 11th and the end of the 12th century, everything was transformed. This profound alteration did not take place in the East, where, in some respects, Christian matters are still today what they were then - and what they were in the West before the end of the 11th century." (Yves Congar, After Nine Hundred Years, p. 39; Fordham University Press).
Again, we can appreciate the lives of the Western Saints - and I do - but we cannot revive their piety and have little idea of what it looked like in practice. Would love to carry this on in person when possible.
Thank you for the thoughtful response and the recommended resources. Duffy’s Stripping of the Altars is a wonderful, yet melancholy read. There were parts of that book that made me heartbroken. Another interesting resource as it relates to the relative equivalent the Rood Screen played compared to the Iconostasis in Anglo-Saxon and early Norman England is the book “Orthodox Prayers of Old England” by Saint Hilarion Press.
And in all honesty, please let me know if you are ever anywhere in the vicinity of Atlanta, Georgia. I’d love to try and meet up and discuss these topics more in person.
Great article. I've been Orthodox 20+yrs and a move 5yrs compelled ne to go to a Western Rite Church. It was like nails on a Chalkboard to this former Catholic Altar Boy trained in the Tridentine Mass.
It's my understanding it was only ever meant to be a bridge for entire Protestant congregations to convert.
In the 21st Century in the USA, the on-the-ground reality is Western Rite is death for parish growth. No one seeking the Ancient Faith is drawn to Western Rite. I've seen the disappointment in visitors (Orthodox and just inquirers). My own wife only barely attends. "It's not Orthodox " she says.
We're the only canonical Orthodox parish for 2+hrs in any direction. We have Schismatic stealing the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostum and they're catching the inquirers who don't understand what Canonical means.
If we don't become normative Orthodox in the next year or so, our parish will die.
Lord have mercy! You know it's sad because this is the story for so many WR parishes. It's typically the priest and one or two old folks who are zealously in favor of the WR, everyone else comes and goes once they find a normal Orthodox parish, and they slowly die. But these same priest keep starting new WR parishes, I don't get it. I recently say where an old parish in the Midwest, an old historic parish at that, switched to WR! I couldn't believe it, so I inquired, and it ended up that there had been a lot of turmoil and scandal and the parish was basically abandoned, the remaining one or two people were approached by a small WR mission, and they merged. It's been about a year since then, parish hasn't grown by a single person, people prefer to drive 2 hours to a mission that is Byzantine Rite.
Thank you for this. I do have a question concerning this (it's mentioned in the first paragraph as well):
"The Western Rite liturgy is not, nor was it ever a return to the ancient rites of the Church, but rather a modification of modern Roman Catholic-Anglican practice - practices born of the West’s abandonment of Orthodoxy."
Do you have a source you can share which demonstrates the modification of the liturgical content? In seminary I was given a chart comparing the Gallican rite with the Liturgy of St Chrysostom, and this revealed a lack of clarity concerning the role of the Holy Spirit in the Gallican rite (in brief, the anaphora and epiclesis are very unclear... This was brought up in one of the Orthodox-Anglican conversations and was a point of conflict hindering union).
Anyway--I would like to see whether the present WR Liturgies are merely post-schism forms with Orthodoxy sprinkled on top, or whether they are truly the most ancient forms integrating elements of St Chrysostom's liturgy. It's still a problem if the latter, but having the actual data compared might be helpful for conversations with WR advocates.
Mind you, one of the WR liturgies includes the recitation of the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene Creed. While the Apostles Creed is certainly Orthodox, all local creeds were supposed to be phased out by the Nicene Creed after the 4th century, so it just shows a resistance to be obedient to the church.
Thank you for this review with photos of the Western Rite in these Estados Unidos. Local language Liturgy is important, but witnessing Christ in His Saints will form the American Church. ⛪♥️🇨🇦🇲🇽🇺🇲☦️🕊️🔥⛲ Grace & peace to you, thank you for the reference notes. ✅
It's a fairly niche topic and I'm not sure how much academic work has been done looking explicitly at a comparison of the Western Rite mass to modern or ancient liturgies. But I'm not also not sure that is needed. You can grab a St. Andrews Service Book, which is the WR service book for the Antiochians, and analyze it next to Catholic and Anglican missals; looking at the texts side by side, the differences are minimal.
The St. Ambrose Hymnal used by ROCOR WR... about 3/4 of the hymns are written by heretics. I just don't sing them when they come up... just like I skip Ash Wednesday.
“they would set up an iconostasis, the presence of which was, according to archeologists, nearly universal (contrary to the myths pushed on seemingly every Western Rite parish’s about us page)”
A footnote or authoritative source was conspicuously absent. This was especially notable given how absolutist and universal the claim is. As with many items, reality is often more complicated and nuanced.
For instance, a basic internet search turns up results indicating that the first item even remotely resembling an iconostasis in the historical record turns up in the 6th century when Saint Justinian rebuilt Hagia Sophia. Also, for what it’s worth, the YouTube video “The Failures of Eastern Orthodoxy” links to a clip at the approximately 37:10 mark, showing a clergyman acknowledging that the modern form iconostasis “is a very late development from Orthodox standards.” Granted, I’m not endorsing this video, or saying I agree with most, some, or any of its overall content. I just reference it to cite someone who says the opposite of the claim you make.
Full disclosure, I’m an Orthodox Christian that was entered the Church through an Antiochian parish and now attend an OCA parish in the south. Your note about prostrations on Sunday brought a slight smile to my face. I enjoy the Eastern Christian tradition, but also have a soft spot for the Western Rite. The worship style, hymnography, musical arrangement, and cultural patrimony of the Western Christian tradition, especially the English variant, has a distinctive pull as an American of Anglo-Celtic descent. In a similar vein, many at my current parish feel this strong affiliation for the Russian tradition and the Rus expression of the Orthodox Christian faith. For reasons particular to me, I have a stronger affinity for the Anglo-Celtic expression than that of Rus.
But I’ve already rambled on enough. Overall, this was a very well written and thought provoking piece that I enjoyed. The points I raised above would be better discussed in person over a shared drink or two. God Bless!
I added a few sources which you can explore to get started, though there are many more. Enjoy! Unfortunately, there is a great deal of bad information out there. Similar to how Byzantium was portrayed for hundreds of years (and the very use and connotations of the word "byzantine") by leading scholars, largely out of a need to legitimize the German Empire as the rightful bearer of the Roman legacy, much has been said to justify the West's abandonment of the authentic liturgical traditions of the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, and Gallic churches.
Modern Anglican and Catholic practices are something entirely foreign to the Anglo-Celtic spirituality you claim to have an affinity for. In the words of Yves Congar: "A Christian of the 4th or 5th century would have felt less bewildered by the forms of piety current in the 11th century than would his counterpart of the 11th century in the forms of the 12th... Between the end of the 11th and the end of the 12th century, everything was transformed. This profound alteration did not take place in the East, where, in some respects, Christian matters are still today what they were then - and what they were in the West before the end of the 11th century." (Yves Congar, After Nine Hundred Years, p. 39; Fordham University Press).
Again, we can appreciate the lives of the Western Saints - and I do - but we cannot revive their piety and have little idea of what it looked like in practice. Would love to carry this on in person when possible.
Thank you for the thoughtful response and the recommended resources. Duffy’s Stripping of the Altars is a wonderful, yet melancholy read. There were parts of that book that made me heartbroken. Another interesting resource as it relates to the relative equivalent the Rood Screen played compared to the Iconostasis in Anglo-Saxon and early Norman England is the book “Orthodox Prayers of Old England” by Saint Hilarion Press.
And in all honesty, please let me know if you are ever anywhere in the vicinity of Atlanta, Georgia. I’d love to try and meet up and discuss these topics more in person.
Great article. I've been Orthodox 20+yrs and a move 5yrs compelled ne to go to a Western Rite Church. It was like nails on a Chalkboard to this former Catholic Altar Boy trained in the Tridentine Mass.
It's my understanding it was only ever meant to be a bridge for entire Protestant congregations to convert.
In the 21st Century in the USA, the on-the-ground reality is Western Rite is death for parish growth. No one seeking the Ancient Faith is drawn to Western Rite. I've seen the disappointment in visitors (Orthodox and just inquirers). My own wife only barely attends. "It's not Orthodox " she says.
We're the only canonical Orthodox parish for 2+hrs in any direction. We have Schismatic stealing the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostum and they're catching the inquirers who don't understand what Canonical means.
If we don't become normative Orthodox in the next year or so, our parish will die.
Lord have mercy! You know it's sad because this is the story for so many WR parishes. It's typically the priest and one or two old folks who are zealously in favor of the WR, everyone else comes and goes once they find a normal Orthodox parish, and they slowly die. But these same priest keep starting new WR parishes, I don't get it. I recently say where an old parish in the Midwest, an old historic parish at that, switched to WR! I couldn't believe it, so I inquired, and it ended up that there had been a lot of turmoil and scandal and the parish was basically abandoned, the remaining one or two people were approached by a small WR mission, and they merged. It's been about a year since then, parish hasn't grown by a single person, people prefer to drive 2 hours to a mission that is Byzantine Rite.
Thank you for this. I do have a question concerning this (it's mentioned in the first paragraph as well):
"The Western Rite liturgy is not, nor was it ever a return to the ancient rites of the Church, but rather a modification of modern Roman Catholic-Anglican practice - practices born of the West’s abandonment of Orthodoxy."
Do you have a source you can share which demonstrates the modification of the liturgical content? In seminary I was given a chart comparing the Gallican rite with the Liturgy of St Chrysostom, and this revealed a lack of clarity concerning the role of the Holy Spirit in the Gallican rite (in brief, the anaphora and epiclesis are very unclear... This was brought up in one of the Orthodox-Anglican conversations and was a point of conflict hindering union).
Anyway--I would like to see whether the present WR Liturgies are merely post-schism forms with Orthodoxy sprinkled on top, or whether they are truly the most ancient forms integrating elements of St Chrysostom's liturgy. It's still a problem if the latter, but having the actual data compared might be helpful for conversations with WR advocates.
Mind you, one of the WR liturgies includes the recitation of the Apostles Creed instead of the Nicene Creed. While the Apostles Creed is certainly Orthodox, all local creeds were supposed to be phased out by the Nicene Creed after the 4th century, so it just shows a resistance to be obedient to the church.
Thank you for this review with photos of the Western Rite in these Estados Unidos. Local language Liturgy is important, but witnessing Christ in His Saints will form the American Church. ⛪♥️🇨🇦🇲🇽🇺🇲☦️🕊️🔥⛲ Grace & peace to you, thank you for the reference notes. ✅
💯
Excellent article. Solid arguments with solid references. Maybe you should consider submitting it to "Orthodox Reflections"?
I'm glad you liked it. I forwarded the article to them shortly after posting, hopefully they'll post it!